ADHD 2.0 Reveals New Science and Strategies

ADHD 2.0 Reveals New Science and Strategies

Dr. Hallowell’s latest book, ADHD 2.0 is out today!

Ned’s longtime writing partner, Dr. John Ratey, joins him for a conversation about the latest research they uncovered including how the brain’s “default mode network” is especially dangerous for those with ADHD, why “ADHD” is a terrible term and we should call it “VAST” instead,  and how finding the right amount of difficult can help you stay engaged in a task.

They also discuss the role the cerebellum plays in regulating our attention, how exercise can help with symptoms, why ADHDers are more susceptible to addiction in all forms, and the importance of connection.

You can get a copy of ADHD 2.0 at DrHallowell.com or JohnRatey.com, or by clicking HERE. You can also find it wherever books are sold!

Reach out to us with your comments, questions and show ideas! Send us an email, or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to [email protected]

Learn more about our sponsor, OmegaBrite Wellness! Distraction listeners can SAVE 20% on their first order with the code: Podcast2020. Shop online at OmegaBriteWellness.com.

Distraction is created by Sounds Great Media. Our producer is Sarah Guertin and our recording engineer/editor is Scott Persson.

Check out this episode!

A transcript of this episode is below.


Dr. Ned Hallowell:
This episode is made possible by our sponsor, OmegaBrite Wellness. I’ve taken their Omega-3 supplements for many years and so has my wife and that’s why I invited them to sponsor my podcast. I’m proud to have them. You can find all of their products online at omegabrite.wellness.com and Brite is intentionally misspelled, B-R-I-T-E, omegabritewellness.com.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Hello, this is Dr. Ned Hallowell and welcome to Distraction. We have a very special show today because my dear friend, John Ratey, Dr. John Ratey is joining us to talk about our new book, ADHD 2.0: New Science and Strategies for Thriving with Distraction. It will come out January 12th and we’re hoping to tell you enough about it that you will want to run out and buy the book yourselves. So without further ado, let me welcome my wonderful friend, John. Hello, John.

Dr. John Ratey:
Hello, Ned and hello everyone in podcast land.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Yes. Just so you know, I’m coming to you from my third floor studio office in Arlington, Massachusetts and John is coming to you from, where are you John?

Dr. John Ratey:
I am in Los Angeles, California, Beverly Hills, to be exact from my wife’s apartment in her office and enjoying talking with you.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Good. Well, so we have this new book that listeners maybe remember our first book, Driven to Distraction that came out in 1994 and then Delivered from Distraction came out in 2005 and so now in 2021, we have ADHD 2.0. Let’s just jump right in and tell listeners what’s new about it. One thing that’s new in the book is our term for ADHD, which is a terrible term, it’s not a deficit of attention, it’s an abundance of attention and we don’t see it as a disorder, but rather a trait. If you manage it right it’s an asset, if you don’t, it can be a terrible pain in the butt. So we invented a new term for the condition that does not connote as much pathology as ADHD does with its deficit disorder.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Our new term, which we introduce in this book is vast, V-A-S-T. First of all, it is a vast condition, but vast is also an acronym stands for variable attention stimulus trait. Captures the two key elements of stimulation and attention and everything in this condition is variable. So VAST, we hope will be more appealing to people and actually far more accurate than the old ADHD. What do you have to say about that, John?

Dr. John Ratey:
No, exactly. And I think we’ve been trying to say, “Look, this is a normal condition across a spectrum,” and it’s when you get… because we all have variable attention, right, and we all have trouble with it. But especially some people have the genes or have the upbringing or have circumstances that lead to more of it. And especially in our overstimulated world, we all have trouble with our attention. We’re not building it up like we used to or so it goes. But the problem with ADHD and the problem with a diagnosis like a deficit is that it makes people feel problematic. It makes them feel defunct, deficit, they’re less than. That’s not a way to think about it. It’s something to be mastered, to be understood and to be guided.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Yeah. So with a more affirmative term that is actually more accurate because there’s no deficit of attention, it’s wandering of attention, an abundance of attention. The need is to control it. So we offer VAST as both a more accurate and a more affirmative positive strength-based as we like to say, strength-based term. So that’s one thing that’s new in this book. Something else that’s new comes from the realm of a neuroscience and it’s a complicated cumbersome term, but once you understand it, it’s incredibly powerful. This is the default mode network, the DMN, which I call the demon and you’ll see why. John, do you want to give them a explanation of why we think the DMN is so useful and powerful an idea?

Dr. John Ratey:
Right. Well, first off, it’s looking at the brain as a bunch of networks and the major one is the default mode network, which is parts of the brain that are all connected and that are being employed when you’re letting your mind wander. This is sort of a condition that ADD people love and are very much into. But it’s when we’re not paying attention to something, we go into the default mode. This is great when you can control it. But again people with ADD have trouble getting rid of it. They’re too much into it. We can get out of it when we have a task performance network, which is another network that takes us into something that we’re paying attention to, something that we’re worried about, something they were doing. It usually in people that don’t have attention deficit disorder. When this happens, when you get into something, your default mode shuts up or goes down. However, with ADD it’s always pressing to say, “Hey, pay attention to me,” which means, let’s go into a mind wandering situation.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Yeah. I think what people find so useful about the DMN or really revelation is that it can just stream out really negative ideas, thoughts, feelings, images. So you go into the DMN, the demon, and it takes over and you get into this sort of trance-like state of rumination and you can stay in it. As people with ADD know only to well, you can stay in it for a long time, spend an hour just brooding and ruminating on all the ways in which your life is miserable and you’re miserable and everything’s miserable. People take medication to prevent it and they do anything they can possibly think of to prevent it, but the best way to prevent it is to do something else, to get back into the task-positive network, to snap out of the demon.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
And so I say, “Don’t feed the demon,” and we tend to feed it with our attention. Attention is its life’s blood, its oxygen supply. Well, if you pay attention to something else, like dig a hole or play a piano or talk to a friend, anything, do anything, do jumping jacks, focus on your breathing. The key is to focus on something else to break the hole, the DMN, the demon has over you to break that negative about how you’re awful and your life is awful. It’s a state that people with ADD go into and the mistake they make is they mistake the productions of the demon for being reality. Yes, I really am that bad, yes, life really is that awful. And it’s not. It’s your imagination conjuring up all this negative stuff. Rather than take a pill or take a new philosophy course, simply do something else, anything to focus your attention elsewhere so you’re not feeding the demon with your attention.

Dr. John Ratey:
The trick with this too is that the DMN and the TPN and the task-performance network-

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Task-positive, isn’t it?

Dr. John Ratey:
Yes, task-positive network is, the connection between them is clunky. It doesn’t quite go as easily as it does in the so-called neuro-typical person or the person that doesn’t have ADD. And so having structures, having a positive focus in your life and the 3M’s meditation, medication and exercise, which is not an M, but all help correct this clunkiness so that you’re able to switch easily enough and get out of it if you get caught into the rumination problem.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
I think the M you were looking for John is movement.

Dr. John Ratey:
Movement, yes.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Meditation, medication and movement.

Dr. John Ratey:
Yes.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
But to deal with the DMN, you really don’t need medication, you just need the insight that this is not reality, life is not so terrible, I’m not so terrible and just focus your attention on some other tasks. You’ve got to shut off the demon’s oxygen supply, namely your attention and redirect your attention to some other tasks. Do a crossword puzzle, dig a hole, call a friend, do 25 jumping jacks, just focus on your breathing. You’ve always got your breathing with you. And if you can do that then you will shut off the demon and you’ll stop this horrible, horrible spell of trance-like brooding, ruminating negative thinking that really hounds most people who have VAST or ADD. It’s such a simple trick to learn, but so gripping is the habit of the negative thinking that a lot of people just buy into it and keep feeding the demon with their attention.

Dr. John Ratey:
Right. It’s been very helpful for patients and people in general who have trouble with their attention, sort of giving them this model saying that, “You have something that you’re trying to attend to, but you’re being pulled out of it by the default mode that’s a chatterbox and just won’t shut up.” So it’s helpful to use this model and people have said, “Aha, that’s what it is. When I’m trying to pay attention and keep on what it is I want to do, I’m being pulled back to this default mode to have my mind wander or get into the very ingrained rumination of how you’ve not done right in life, you have been a failure, whatever.” But just having that explanation has sparked a lot of, not just insight, but action-oriented insight when people can say, “Okay, now I just need to do something or change my thoughts or flip into another mode, to fry an egg,” like your one patient who said, “Yeah, I’ve fried 25 eggs now, what?” I mean, it’s-

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
When we were first learning about this, one of the first experts we listened to amused us both because his antidote to the demon, the DMN, he would just shout it out. He would say, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” and that would shut off the demon. He’d out shout it. He’d just say, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” and that would shut off the demon. So you can do that. Of course, you have to be in a place where nobody’s going to think you’re going out of your mind, but it’s-

Dr. John Ratey:
No, but that checks it off you see.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Yeah, exactly.

Dr. John Ratey:
Then you’re able to use your energy to things that are positive and things you want to do.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So don’t buy it. See, that’s the key selling point. Don’t let it own you, don’t let it take over, don’t think, “This is the terrible insight that, I really am doomed and my life really does suck and I suck and everything sucks.” Don’t buy that. Don’t mistake that imagining for reality because it’s not reality and you can shut it off just by doing something, engaging, focusing on something so you activate the task-positive network. I hope that’s clear because it is complicated from a neuroscience standpoint, but it’s very true, very valid. You can see it on FMRI and it’s really learning how to use this scientific bit of information in a very practical transformative way.

Dr. John Ratey:
One of the chapters in our new book is called, Finding the Right Difficult, which is finding something that really is compelling and that is a bit hard, but something that you want to master, you want to be involved in and this will keep your attention. If you find the right one, you can keep coming back to it, whatever it is, or solving a problem, figuring out whatever your bills or how to-

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
It’s not usually going to be your bills, but the two key elements of the right difficult are number one, it has to be challenging. If it’s not challenging, it’s boring. And number two, it has to matter to you. It has to really hold you. And so those two combined, it matters to you and it’s challenging then you’ll engage and in many ways, the more difficult it is the better. I discovered my right difficult in high school when my 12th grade English teacher challenged me to write a novel. A novel, I knew Exeter was a tough school, I didn’t know I had to write a novel, but I did it because he encouraged me to do it. I took up the challenge and by the end of the year, I’d written a novel and it won the senior English prize and I was off to the races. The beauty of that and it’s been my right difficult ever since, no pun on, write, with 21 books and still counting. It all began in 12th grade when that teacher introduced me to my right difficult.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
And that is a third element of it which we found is so important in living and mastering this condition, namely that you have a creative outlet. We’re like cows, we need to be milked. If I don’t have a book going, I get depressed. We need that creative outlet. I think it’s been overlooked in the writings that people have done about ADHD. We haven’t stressed it enough ourselves. It’s so important. You find it through the right difficult. So you find some activity that’s challenging and matters to you that you can put in your creativity. That’s why paying your bills is not particularly a good example. So it’s got to allow for your creativity to be brought into the process.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
And so you have those three elements that it’s difficult, but it matters to you and there’s room for your creativity to activate it and advance it. When you find that and you can have several, then you’re ready to get into the zone, you’re ready to take advantage of the advantages that come with this condition, the creativity, the originality, the industriousness, the refusal to give up, the stalwart nature of, spunky nature of most people who have it. But remember those three elements that it’s got to be difficult, it’s got to matter to you and there has to be room for you to really put your full supply of creativity into it.

Dr. John Ratey:
Right. Well, I was thinking less about pills and more about manipulating the stock market and figuring that-

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
There you go. Okay. There you go.

Dr. John Ratey:
Because I have so many patients who find that right difficult by day trading or dealing with the cryptocurrency. These are difficulties to get it right and to master it. So that’s what I was really thinking about this morning.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Absolutely, absolutely. Over the past few months, I’ve spoken to my friend, the founder and creator of OmegaBrite Wellness, Dr. Carol Locke, about the benefits of taking OmegaBrite’s Omega-3’s CBD and other supplements. Here’s a clip from one of those conversations.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Could you tell us a little bit about the study, recent study that showed OmegaBrite reduced inflammation and anxiety in medical students?

Dr. Carol Locke:
This was a great study. It was done at Ohio state and it was done on medical students, 68 medical students without any medical problems done over 12 weeks. It was a blinded study meaning the researchers and the students did not know if they were taking the OmegaBrite or the dummy capsules. What it found was a 20% reduction in anxiety and a 14% reduction in the inflammatory cytokine IL-6, so that you had a very powerful benefit from the OmegaBrite shown in this study. That’s something that people could use right now in their life, reducing their anxiety and stress and inflammation,

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Distraction listeners, you can save 20% on your first order at omegabritewellness.com by using the promo code, Podcast 2020. All right. Let’s get back to today’s topic.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
So now we have two elements in our book that have not been in previous books, a new name for ADHD, talking about the default mode network, talking about the right difficult and then a fourth new topic in the book, you want to talk about the cerebellum, John?

Dr. John Ratey:
Yes. The cerebellum. What a great part of our brain. It’s amazing. We used to only think of it as dealing with keeping us coordinated, keeping our movements coordinated. In the past 20 years, there’s been an explosion of interest in the cerebellum as keeping our thinking in order, keeping our experience in order. This is really important. It’s not just about balance and rhythm and for our motor system, but for all of our higher functionings, especially for attention, that the carry over of our cerebellum in involvement and attention is so great.

Dr. John Ratey:
We know that, 35, 40% of kids with ADHD have a discoordination problems, problems with their coordination and balance and whatnot. And same so do many of adults who get diagnosed with ADHD, they have coordination and balance problems. The beauty of it for… in our book we talk about is that the cerebellum is something that is very trainable, that is, you can make it better by doing balance training, doing yoga, doing Tai Chi, doing the martial arts or doing some kind of exercise that impacts your balance and makes it better. This has an impact on your attention, on the clunkiness of the default mode and TPN but also in doing all the things for our executive function that the medicine can do. It can help greatly.

Dr. John Ratey:
There’s study after study now showing that this is something to really pay attention to. Ned, you have this case in China, that is in our book where you did this sort of from afar over email to a mom and getting her son to really change his life by doing balance exercising in the morning and led to massive change in his attention and his performance and in the school that he was involved with.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
And what’s so important is that it’s not just you get better at balance and coordination, by doing exercises that stimulate the cerebellum, you, in fact, directly impact the circuits that have to do with executive function and detention. This is work from Jeremy Schmahmann at Mass General Hospital and Harvard Medical School showing there are connections from the cerebellum through the vestibular circuit to the prefrontal cortex and all the elements that are so involved in ADHD. In fact, there’s a syndrome called Schmahmann syndrome named after Jeremy Schmahmann where injury to the cerebellum results in a syndrome that looks ever so much like ADHD. So it’s not just that you’re getting really good at balance so you can ride a unicycle, it’s that by stimulating the cerebellum, by doing exercises that challenge balance, you are also directly impacting the circuits that create the problematic symptoms in ADHD.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
And as John’s saying, I learned about this… I went to Shanghai a couple of years ago and gave a talk and at the end, the mother of one of the kids, an eight year old boy came up and said, “You’ve got to treat my son.” And I said, “Well, I can’t. I live in Boston, you live in Shanghai.” And she said, “That’s okay. We’ll use email.” And so she was so persistent, we went ahead and we devised a treatment plan that involved the elements that we outlined in the book. It’s not just a cerebellar stimulation, but it’s also creating an environment, what we call a stellar environment of warmth and connection and support and instead of the boy being humiliated and hit with a stick when he got something wrong, they started understanding him and the teacher went along with it.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
And then in that context, we had him do a series of exercises for 15 minutes in the morning and 15 minutes in the evening that involved balance. So he’d stand on one leg, stand on one leg with his eyes closed, he would do some juggling exercises, a series of exercises that challenged balance and coordination. He went from being the absolute rock bottom of the class at the start of the year in September to by Christmas being number one in the class and it was just this simple, straightforward program, no medication whatsoever that took this little boy combining a stellar environment of warmth and understanding with exercises that challenged balance and coordination.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
That little boy I’m still in touch with him interestingly enough, he just got into the best secondary school in China. He’s thriving, he’s soaring and he won’t stop doing the exercises. He says to his mother, “I’m not stopping these. Dr. Hallowell gave them to me and I’m going to continue doing them,” and he’s off to the races. His American name is Boots and he and his mom it’s just wonderful to see them. But if a doctor from however many thousand miles away, Boston to Shanghai using no medication and just coaching on stellar environments, warmth and cerebellar stimulation, I can get that of a result, I mean, it really shows that we’re onto something new and important and really the way was paved by Jeremy Schmahmann and the important connection between the cerebellum and the front parts of the brain where the action is in ADHD.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
It’s a real breakthrough. I’ve spoken about this before with the Zing program, Wynford Dore in England, with his marvelous program of cerebellar graduated series of exercises. He has over a hundred different exercises that stimulate and challenge balance and coordination and get wonderful results, not just in ADHD, but in other autism and autism spectrum and that sort of thing. So this is another breakthrough that we highlight in the book that John and I are very excited about. If you noticed a change in my voice or John’s voice it’s because I had to move from one location to another, it’s still the same person just located in a different place.

Dr. John Ratey:
I just completed a study with about 26 autistic adolescents, where we had them trained basically on balance and coordination exercises and saw a vast improvement in their attention and then a decrease in their off behaviors and an improvement in their socialization. And these were very complicated autistic adolescent. So it works and it can really make a big difference and with your patient Boots who wasn’t your patient, it was just an advice to the mom, it really changed his life and it’s something that we can easily do for so many people.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Yeah. And it’s real exciting application of advances in neuroscience to the practical treatment of this condition. What else is new in our book, John, before we wrap up here. We talk about medication, we talk about nutrition, we talk about coaching, the new developments in coaching, and now with the pandemic, coaching has become even more important because it’s harder to see people in person.

Dr. John Ratey:
Well, we also have a whole chapter on exercise and how exercise has such a profound effect on the attention system. Because when we exercise, we liberate more neurotransmitters that we affect with our stimulant medication and other medications we use for ADD. But exercise produces them in a big, big way and very quickly, so that we’ve known in all of our books from the very beginning, that exercise was a component of treatment and now we know how it works and why it works and even studies now going on about what kind of exercise to do and there’s no guarantee that one’s better than the other, but the more you do, the better you become at exercising, the better your attention will be.

Dr. John Ratey:
When we started, we heard all the time about kids doing really well when they were playing a sport and then when they were off season that’s when the trouble began. And we have so many examples of that in our star athletes that have the same kind of program that when they stop training, then they get in trouble because their attention system is wild and not focused and then they get into the inevitable problems with addictions that so many people with ADHD have.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
That’s another element that we take up throughout the book really, the overlap with addiction. Probably the single biggest hazard in life with ADD is to develop a chemical addiction or a behavioral addiction. The rate of addiction in the ADHD population is 5 to 10 times higher than in the neuro-typical population. And another interesting fact, 80% of addiction begins between the ages of 13 and 23. So we are talking about major risk for people between 13 and 23. One of the best ways to stay off to avoid addiction is taking medication. This has been shown over and over again, people think, “No, you shouldn’t take medication like Adderall. That’s a gateway drug.” No, just the opposite. It helps close the gateway.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
So by taking medication, you’re reducing the risk of addiction. Contrary to popular belief, taking stimulant medication helps prevent the development of addiction. Remember, behavioral addictions are very important too, screen addiction, gambling addiction, sex addiction, shopping addiction all of these sort of compulsive behaviors go on wild are way, way, way more common in life with ADHD. And then another element that I think we have to stress because now it’s so missing in so many people’s lives that we stress in the book is the importance of connection, the importance of human connection, of warmth, which I call the other vitamin C and it is as vital for life as ascorbic acid. So many people are suffering from a vitamin connect deficiency these days. You see the symptoms, it’s listlessness, low grade depression, lack of motivation, lack of zest, lack of get up and go, all because they’re not getting enough human connection, not getting enough people and we need people.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
I think it’s one of the really most serious and not often acknowledged consequences of the pandemic is the social isolation that absolutely cripples people. Well, people with ADHD, it’s critical that they get it and they often don’t get it because they’re socially awkward, they don’t join, they don’t jump in and as a result, they suffer the consequences of vitamin connect deficiency. Well, that’s a long menu John of new ideas and suggestions in this book, which is by far the shortest of all of our books.

Dr. John Ratey:
Yes. It really is the shortest, but I think it’s power packed even though. It’s short and quick but it brings to light a bunch of the new stuff that keeps coming out about ADHD and what to do.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Yeah. It boiled down to its bare essentials. The manuscript that I handed in was 125,000 words and the manuscript that you’ll buy, if you but the book is 50,000 words. So just think of the labor that went into reducing it in size so it’s absolutely pithy and condensed and every word counts.

Dr. John Ratey:
The other thing about the final product is it hasn’t lost its humor and fun. And we try to keep that in there so that it moves along quickly and you can enjoy the reading of it.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
What would ADD be without humor and fun. There’s no serious case of, a VAST as we like to call it now that… well, we hope you’ll get it. You can go to Amazon and order it or any other book selling outlet. You can go to my website, drhallowell.com, John’s website. What’s yours? johnratey.com.

Dr. John Ratey:
johnratey.com

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
You can go to your bookstore, the bookstores that are open. We hope that with this book and the documentary, that’s going to come out two months later will really have a movement to take the stigma away from this misunderstood condition and really help people turn it into an asset from being a liability to turn it into an asset. Any last thoughts, John?

Dr. John Ratey:
Well, I just think that this book really captures the essence of the new stuff that we are so excited about and as well as how to manage your attention and the deficit or the attention difference or the variability problem that you have. I think it turned out to be a terrific resource and recommend it to all of you.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Yeah. And I think we really stress that this condition is not a disorder. It’s a way of being in the world and it has its positives and its negative. We’ve been working with people who have it for so long. We really know what you need to do to maximize the positives and minimize the negatives of this way of being in the world that is so misunderstood. And instead of carrying around these moral diagnoses that you’re undisciplined or a loser or can’t get your act together, we’ll show you how, in fact, you can turn all that around. So that’s why we call this a good news diagnosis. Unlike most diagnoses in medicine, this one is good news because things can only get better. John and I had been doing it long enough, we’ve seen it thousands of times now, thousands upon thousands of times with people, their lives really demonstrably, measurably, improving. Sometimes only a little bit, but more often a lot, major, major improvements.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
And that’s why we’re so zealous about it? A patient said to me the other day, “You’re like Moses, you’re leading people out of bondage into the promised land.” And I said, “Well, I don’t think I’m Moses, but this knowledge is Mosesesque. It really can take people out of a condition of bondage and offer them a whole new life. John and I have seen it so often that we really want people to understand it and get the message. We’re not selling anything, we’re trying to report the truth that we’ve seen over and over and over again.

Dr. John Ratey:
That’s great. I think that’s a wrap.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Okay. Well, that’s all the time we have for today. Thank you so much to my dear friend and colleague John Ratey. You can learn more about John at his website, johnratey.com that’s J-O-H-N-R-A-T-E-Y.com. And you can learn more about our new book ADHD 2.0 in the show notes and on my website and John’s website as well. My website is drhallowell.com. And of course, you can get a copy of ADHD 2.0 wherever you buy your books. Remember to follow Distraction on social media and please continue to reach out to us with your comments and questions. We love getting questions from you and every now and then we devote an entire show to your questions. Our email address is [email protected] That’s [email protected]

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
Distraction is created by Sounds Great Media, our audio engineer is Scott Persson, the brilliant and always ingenious Scott Persson and our producer is the delightful, equanimitist and harmonious Sarah Guertin. I’m Dr. Ned Hallowell. Thanks so much for listening and I look forward to being with you next time.

Dr. Ned Hallowell:
The episode you just heard was made possible by my good friends at OmegaBrite Wellness. I take their supplements every day and that’s why I invited them to sponsor my podcast. Shop online at OmegaBrite and that’s B-R-I-T-E. wellness.com.

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